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on this episode of skeptic Oh Chris

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Carter returns to discuss his latest

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book science and the afterlife

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experience are there unintended

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consequences for overthrowing

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materialism is there a chance that the

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game is gonna wind up being played one

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way or another it's scientific

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materialism or its Church rule and

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someone has made the decision that I

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choose the phony scientific materialism

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over the thin phony church state one of

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the major themes of my book is that

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there's a third alternative one that

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does not require a leap of faith and one

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that does not require embracing the

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pseudo scientific ideology of

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materialism there's a third alternative

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and the third alternative is to examine

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the evidence without prejudice without

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materialistic prejudice or religious

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prejudice and see what the evidence says

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welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host galaxy garrison on this

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episode of skeptic oh we welcome back

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Chris Carter who you just heard in the

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introduction Chris is well known to many

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of you listeners for his excellent books

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on both the skeptics afterlife and NDEs

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he's covered a lot of the topics we

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cover here I enjoyed my conversation

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with them I especially enjoyed playing

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devil's advocate with Chris on a couple

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of these topics that you'll hear about

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so I don't know why I always seem to

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tangle with Chris in these kind of

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unexpected ways but maybe it makes for

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interesting conversation I'll let you

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decide I also wanted to give you a heads

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up on a skeptical listener who sent me a

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link to her very interesting book and I

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carry down a little email dialogue with

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Cynthia and I wound up asking her to

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prepare this this little promo for her

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book so give a listen hey Alex is a

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Cynthia Clayton parent and I'm calling

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to first thank you so much for reading

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my book and secondly because you enjoyed

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it for inviting me to talk briefly about

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it and to invite your listeners to

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download it for free from my website the

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title is belief is so last century

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my thesis suggests that we must move

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past both the belief of the dualist and

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the believing skeptic and join forces as

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free thinkers as a way forward as your

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listeners are well aware because of the

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great successes of materialistic science

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we have metaphorically speaking a big

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group of scientists riding high in a

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pimped-out luxury bus speeding down the

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materialistic highway and they leave

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duelists with loose change in their

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pockets on rocky roads in 60's VW vans

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with bumper sticker stating woohoo does

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work the fact is we must give those

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researchers willing to take more of a

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free-thinking approach on the question

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of consciousness survival facilities on

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a level of NASA and CERN my book

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includes solutions to help reach this

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goal and a big idea for how NDE research

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could be better served while ending a

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big ongoing contested debate in this

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country so while it's still three and I

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invite your listeners to download the

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book at belief is so last century org

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and for sharing their thoughts on your

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forum and I also want to say

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congratulations Alex so much for

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bringing 200 great shows to us explore

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the question of who the hell are we

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anyway and I'll just end by saying

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thanks again and bye for now

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so please check out Cynthia's book I'll

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have a link to it in the show notes but

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for now let's move on to my interview

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with Chris Carter today we welcome Chris

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Carter back to skeptic Oh many of you

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know Chris for his withering attacks on

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sceptical nonsense and his books science

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and the near-death experience science

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and psychic phenomena and his latest

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science in the afterlife experience

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chris holds undergraduate and master's

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degrees in philosophy from oxford he's a

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very fine writer and it's a pleasure to

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welcome him back to skeptic Oh Chris

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welcome back thanks for joining me

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thanks Alex how you doing great great

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everything's good

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this latest book is really fascinating

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it's obviously a topic that we love to

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talk about here and you really dig into

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so much I'm hoping we can talk about the

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book but also talk about a lot other

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things surrounding the books on I'm

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anxious to have you back on all right

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that sounds great so Chris you begin the

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book with this the manner in which we

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live our lives to a large extent depends

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on what we believe comes after it

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fantastic love it

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tell us more about that quote well right

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above what I say that I mention a quote

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by George Orwell is and it goes the

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major problem of our time is decay in

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the belief in personal immortality and

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so that's what inspired the first

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paragraph of my book

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Orwell's grim vision of the future which

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was portrayed in his novel 1984

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fortunately did not come to pass however

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many of us believe that mankind now

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faces a future even worse than anything

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Orwell imagined we have population

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growth we have global climate change we

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have increasing income inequality in

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various countries including the United

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States

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increasing environmental devastation

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gasification of the ocean hostilities

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growing hostilities around the world so

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I think that mankind needs a new message

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or perhaps an old message by which he

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can find a more perfect purposeful and

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less destructive way of living you know

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that's interesting and that certainly

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one way to take it it's very interesting

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actually that you take it that way

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because I actually took it in a much

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more positive personal sense and that's

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that in one way we struggle with these

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large social cultural issues that you

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talk about but in another way it's

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really more of a personal journey for

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all of us it's you know what decisions

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we make about the people around us about

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how we care for them about how we how we

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think about ourselves and our role in

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our life and what it means and what it

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means in relation to the people that

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come before us either in our family or

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friends who have passed away and in that

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way the manner in which we live our

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lives to a large extent ability depends

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on what we believe comes after it is a

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much more optimistic a much more

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positive spin to it doesn't it well I

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think that yes the belief in an

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afterlife most certainly does put a more

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optimistic spin on our lives but I think

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it also makes us more aware of our

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obligations to each other and to future

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generations to not use the earth or the

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Earth's atmosphere is one big garbage

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dump - to pay our fair share of

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environmental damage that we're causing

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by dumping 90 million tons of

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heat-trapping gases into the atmosphere

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every 24 hours through the burning of

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fossil fuels and on a smaller scale I

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suppose just by treating each other more

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humanely by looking after others by

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voting to sustain the planet and to

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reduce income inequality to make the the

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richer people pay their fair share and I

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hate to sound like some sort of crazy

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left-wing radical I'm not I consider

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myself a moderate but I do think that

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there are very dangerous forces

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operating in the world today which

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threaten the long-term viability of

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human civilization you know that's

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really interesting Chris and I didn't

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imagine that we jump right into this

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kind of political current events kind of

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discussion but I'm really glad we did

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because I think it's an important

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landing point if you will for this whole

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discussion of survival of consciousness

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and we'll get back to talking about the

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book and survival of consciousness but I

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want to follow this line that you're on

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also because it's fascinating to me and

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we don't get a chance to talk about it

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enough and that's that while I share

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your concern and the issues that you

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raised are obviously pressing and and

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obvious to all of us but at the same

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time I can't help but feel that there's

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there's another way of looking at

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survival that turns all those issues on

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its head right because one of the

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natural conclusions from the

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understanding that the best evidence

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suggests the survival of consciousness

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is real is that it gets us out of this

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time limited sense that we live in in

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this pressing need to kind of fix things

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now when the time is marching and that

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evolution is here and this kind of

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treadmill that we're on doesn't it

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because now we're talking about

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consciousness really being infinite and

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with reincarnation there's really no way

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to logically conclude that we're headed

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towards anywhere other than just further

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evolution and wherever that gets to so

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isn't that another natural conclusion

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that one can draw from this whole

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understanding of consciousness being

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unlimited in terms of time I mean we

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have all the time in the world don't we

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I agree with you in a sense

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I do think that reclaiming the

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widespread belief in an afterlife which

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is something that people did have you

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know perhaps four three four or five

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hundred years ago would result in many

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practical benefits and the philosopher

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David Griffin and I agree that belief in

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an afterlife confers several practical

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benefits such as for example such a

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belief may help overcome the fear of

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death if people are convinced they are

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not ultimately subject to any earthly

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power this can increase their courage to

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fight for freedom ecologically

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sustainable policies and social justice

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and if people believe that this life is

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not the final word and that justice will

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prevail the next life this can help them

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withstand the unfairness they encounter

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in the here and now and the idea of a

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life of life as an unfolding journey

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which continues even after death can

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lead to a greater sense of connection

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with the universe as it unfolds into the

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future and finally the belief in life

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after death can help counter this

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extreme degree of materialism that has

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pervaded every niche of modern

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civilization in which I think which many

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people think is behind a great deal of

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our arsh most short-sighted and

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destructive policies I hear you I hear

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you I rail against that kind of stuff

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all the time and you are also someone

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who is known to rail against those same

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things and rail against this fundamental

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materialist dogmatic pseudo skeptic

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culture that we have and I get all that

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but let me play devil's advocate for a

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minute and talk about social cohesion

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and I wanted to go off and take a little

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sidetrack with you for a minute and look

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at like the vaccine controversy remember

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that guy David Wakefield who said hey

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you know he's a doctor in the UK he's a

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pediatric gastronomic guy for four kids

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and he has a bunch of parents coming to

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him and saying

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my kids have autism in gosh-darn and I

277
00:12:28,970 --> 00:12:27,630
know it's truths directly tied to these

278
00:12:31,180 --> 00:12:28,980
vaccines because we went got the

279
00:12:33,620 --> 00:12:31,190
vaccines and boom then it happened so

280
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:33,630
he's just a doctor presented with

281
00:12:36,710 --> 00:12:35,010
patients who have a problem he starts

282
00:12:39,110 --> 00:12:36,720
looking into this and he says hey I

283
00:12:42,290 --> 00:12:39,120
think there's something to this and he

284
00:12:44,270 --> 00:12:42,300
starts putting it together and Wow he

285
00:12:46,730 --> 00:12:44,280
gets slammed right I mean this guy this

286
00:12:50,330 --> 00:12:46,740
guy can no longer practice medicine he

287
00:12:52,670 --> 00:12:50,340
slammed and maybe he was right I mean

288
00:12:54,350 --> 00:12:52,680
maybe we shouldn't pump kids with 9

289
00:12:56,900 --> 00:12:54,360
different vaccines when we've never

290
00:12:59,210 --> 00:12:56,910
tested the interaction of these vaccines

291
00:13:01,610 --> 00:12:59,220
together maybe he was right but at the

292
00:13:04,250 --> 00:13:01,620
same time didn't we need to put this guy

293
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:04,260
down didn't we need to destroy Wakefield

294
00:13:08,450 --> 00:13:07,050
didn't we have to protect the herd we

295
00:13:09,980 --> 00:13:08,460
can't have everyone running out and

296
00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:09,990
saying they're not gonna vaccinate their

297
00:13:18,020 --> 00:13:14,610
kids so maybe in the same way when we

298
00:13:20,690 --> 00:13:18,030
hear folks like Richard Wiseman say you

299
00:13:22,970 --> 00:13:20,700
know hey by any other standards SIA is

300
00:13:26,329 --> 00:13:22,980
proven and he could just as easily say

301
00:13:28,610 --> 00:13:26,339
by the normal standards of any other

302
00:13:30,410 --> 00:13:28,620
area of science survival of

303
00:13:33,020 --> 00:13:30,420
consciousness is proven he could say the

304
00:13:35,630 --> 00:13:33,030
same thing but then he says but we still

305
00:13:37,610 --> 00:13:35,640
shouldn't believe it maybe what he's

306
00:13:40,130 --> 00:13:37,620
really saying is we got to protect the

307
00:13:42,470 --> 00:13:40,140
herd we got to keep this thing going

308
00:13:45,380 --> 00:13:42,480
so when guys like you smart guys like

309
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:45,390
you and I guess me say hey we need to

310
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:47,850
end all this materialistic nonsense

311
00:13:53,210 --> 00:13:50,730
where are we taking people where would

312
00:13:55,970 --> 00:13:53,220
where would we head if we if we didn't

313
00:13:58,640 --> 00:13:55,980
have this system you're right

314
00:14:01,000 --> 00:13:58,650
well I'm not going to sit here and

315
00:14:06,620 --> 00:14:01,010
endorse the stupidity of the bullvine

316
00:14:08,990 --> 00:14:06,630
mentality the herd mentality the Indians

317
00:14:11,329 --> 00:14:09,000
used to drive herds of Buffalo off of

318
00:14:14,210 --> 00:14:11,339
cliffs because they knew if they got the

319
00:14:15,650 --> 00:14:14,220
herd moving the first ones would jump

320
00:14:16,820 --> 00:14:15,660
off the cliff because the others behind

321
00:14:18,260 --> 00:14:16,830
them we're pushing them and the rest

322
00:14:22,010 --> 00:14:18,270
would simply follow the rest of the herd

323
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:22,020
so I'm no have no admiration for the

324
00:14:28,610 --> 00:14:25,850
herd mentality with regards to Shermer I

325
00:14:30,530 --> 00:14:28,620
don't think his motivation is to protect

326
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:30,540
the herd I think his motivation is to

327
00:14:34,670 --> 00:14:33,690
promote his career right and I and I

328
00:14:37,429 --> 00:14:34,680
hear you okay so

329
00:14:39,290 --> 00:14:37,439
bison over the cliff is a great story

330
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:39,300
and it's true but there's another story

331
00:14:44,030 --> 00:14:41,970
too the other story is the Huns over the

332
00:14:46,249 --> 00:14:44,040
hill right so we all get real

333
00:14:48,559 --> 00:14:46,259
lovey-dovey and start feeling all this

334
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:48,569
we're all connected and we're all good

335
00:14:54,350 --> 00:14:50,610
and all this stuff that you guys in the

336
00:14:57,259 --> 00:14:54,360
are peddling and then the Huns come over

337
00:14:59,449 --> 00:14:57,269
the hill and they kill every man woman

338
00:15:01,999 --> 00:14:59,459
and child because they believe their God

339
00:15:04,970 --> 00:15:02,009
told them they were supposed to rule the

340
00:15:07,609 --> 00:15:04,980
world or number two the other thing is

341
00:15:08,929 --> 00:15:07,619
that the church gets all the power now

342
00:15:10,549 --> 00:15:08,939
because what you're really heading

343
00:15:12,290 --> 00:15:10,559
towards is some kind of spiritual

344
00:15:14,809 --> 00:15:12,300
understanding we know where that goes

345
00:15:16,579 --> 00:15:14,819
it's another power grab by the the

346
00:15:18,319 --> 00:15:16,589
bishops or the priests or whoever they

347
00:15:19,819 --> 00:15:18,329
want to call themselves they grab all

348
00:15:21,799 --> 00:15:19,829
the power and then they start building

349
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:21,809
these nice little bonfires and putting

350
00:15:25,939 --> 00:15:23,610
people on them because they don't think

351
00:15:28,519 --> 00:15:25,949
they're the right ones I mean let's kind

352
00:15:31,100 --> 00:15:28,529
of go there for a little bit Chris and

353
00:15:32,869 --> 00:15:31,110
not just talk about gee we want change

354
00:15:34,850 --> 00:15:32,879
and we want this let's talk about where

355
00:15:38,590 --> 00:15:34,860
that change could really lead these are

356
00:15:41,989 --> 00:15:38,600
realistic unintended consequences of

357
00:15:45,259 --> 00:15:41,999
survival of consciousness becoming kind

358
00:15:47,749 --> 00:15:45,269
of the mainstream belief system well in

359
00:15:50,179 --> 00:15:47,759
my book that I wrote let's just see here

360
00:15:51,590 --> 00:15:50,189
I wrote the experiences described in the

361
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:51,600
pages that follow have important

362
00:15:55,819 --> 00:15:53,490
implications for humanik for Humanity

363
00:15:57,350 --> 00:15:55,829
based upon my own experience and that of

364
00:15:59,540 --> 00:15:57,360
many others I sincerely believe that

365
00:16:01,340 --> 00:15:59,550
deeply beneficial changes in our view of

366
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:01,350
the universe and our place within it

367
00:16:04,489 --> 00:16:02,970
will be gained by those who read about

368
00:16:06,799 --> 00:16:04,499
these strange and often wonderful

369
00:16:09,259 --> 00:16:06,809
experiences and then they then take

370
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:09,269
their profound lessons to heart then I

371
00:16:13,669 --> 00:16:11,370
add most people base their beliefs

372
00:16:16,549 --> 00:16:13,679
regarding the afterlife on religious or

373
00:16:19,220 --> 00:16:16,559
materialistic faith but there is a third

374
00:16:22,929 --> 00:16:19,230
alternative one that requires neither a

375
00:16:26,749 --> 00:16:22,939
leap of faith nor the denial of evidence

376
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:26,759
so when you're talking about some of the

377
00:16:34,789 --> 00:16:29,850
crimes that were occasionally committed

378
00:16:37,759 --> 00:16:34,799
by organized religion during the 15 16

379
00:16:40,489 --> 00:16:37,769
17 centuries yes those crimes were real

380
00:16:42,799 --> 00:16:40,499
and those crimes led to a backlash known

381
00:16:45,049 --> 00:16:42,809
as the Enlightenment in which certain

382
00:16:47,660 --> 00:16:45,059
philosophers not so much scientist but

383
00:16:48,620 --> 00:16:47,670
philosophers such as Voltaire and

384
00:16:50,810 --> 00:16:48,630
Diderot

385
00:16:52,940 --> 00:16:50,820
and later in the 18th century Aldous

386
00:16:56,570 --> 00:16:52,950
Huxley 19th century Aldous Huxley and

387
00:17:00,040 --> 00:16:56,580
others and today in the work of Richard

388
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:00,050
Dawkins and other militant atheists

389
00:17:06,430 --> 00:17:02,690
their work is essentially a backlash

390
00:17:09,220 --> 00:17:06,440
against the excesses of irrational

391
00:17:12,410 --> 00:17:09,230
religious belief and religious extremism

392
00:17:14,180 --> 00:17:12,420
what they've gone they however have gone

393
00:17:16,670 --> 00:17:14,190
to the other extreme they've embraced

394
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:16,680
the doctrine of crude materialism which

395
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:19,050
they think is implied by science which

396
00:17:25,340 --> 00:17:22,410
is is really not it's implied by science

397
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:25,350
which has been long long obsolete but

398
00:17:30,170 --> 00:17:27,810
they're a they're militant atheism is

399
00:17:33,050 --> 00:17:30,180
based upon this doctrine of materialism

400
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:33,060
and they are going to do everything they

401
00:17:39,260 --> 00:17:36,570
possibly can in order to deny or

402
00:17:42,830 --> 00:17:39,270
discredit any evidence that falsifies

403
00:17:47,470 --> 00:17:42,840
the doctrine of materialism agreed but

404
00:17:50,540 --> 00:17:47,480
are there unintended consequences for

405
00:17:53,330 --> 00:17:50,550
overthrowing materialism I just want to

406
00:17:55,940 --> 00:17:53,340
run that speculation with you Chris

407
00:17:59,600 --> 00:17:55,950
because we're both of the same belief in

408
00:18:02,060 --> 00:17:59,610
terms of how completely idiotic that is

409
00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:02,070
in terms of trying to support that with

410
00:18:08,660 --> 00:18:05,280
any real science any real evidence but

411
00:18:11,420 --> 00:18:08,670
is there a chance that you know what the

412
00:18:13,970 --> 00:18:11,430
game is gonna wind up being played one

413
00:18:16,610 --> 00:18:13,980
way or another it's gonna be blind up

414
00:18:19,340 --> 00:18:16,620
being played with scientific materialism

415
00:18:23,510 --> 00:18:19,350
or it's gonna be wind up being played

416
00:18:26,690 --> 00:18:23,520
with church rule and what what someone

417
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:26,700
has made the decision that at the end of

418
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:30,170
the day I choose the science the phony

419
00:18:37,100 --> 00:18:33,330
scientific materialism over the thin

420
00:18:38,990 --> 00:18:37,110
phony church state I think that's a

421
00:18:41,870 --> 00:18:39,000
false dichotomy I don't think that's the

422
00:18:42,980 --> 00:18:41,880
choice one of the major themes of my

423
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:42,990
book is that there's the third

424
00:18:47,210 --> 00:18:45,210
alternative one that does not require a

425
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:47,220
leap of faith and one that does not

426
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:49,050
require embracing the pseudo scientific

427
00:18:53,930 --> 00:18:51,690
ideology of materialism there's a third

428
00:18:56,260 --> 00:18:53,940
alternative and the third alternative is

429
00:18:58,790 --> 00:18:56,270
to examine the evidence without

430
00:19:00,860 --> 00:18:58,800
prejudice about materialistic prejudice

431
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:00,870
or religious prejudice and see what the

432
00:19:03,890 --> 00:19:02,250
evidence says

433
00:19:06,050 --> 00:19:03,900
and I believe that the conclusions that

434
00:19:09,610 --> 00:19:06,060
the evidence implies are not dogmatic

435
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:09,620
they do not ask people to go out and

436
00:19:14,750 --> 00:19:12,570
burn those who disagree with us at the

437
00:19:16,940 --> 00:19:14,760
stake or to wage war against those who

438
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:16,950
disagree with us or to or on the other

439
00:19:21,980 --> 00:19:19,170
hand to deny or suppress evidence I

440
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:21,990
think there's a third alternative and I

441
00:19:26,510 --> 00:19:23,490
could read something from my book here

442
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:26,520
right I briefly discussed that and it's

443
00:19:32,750 --> 00:19:30,170
in Chapter one I believe and I say that

444
00:19:34,580 --> 00:19:32,760
the deniers and debunkers tend to be

445
00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:34,590
militant atheists who are motivated by

446
00:19:39,050 --> 00:19:37,200
allegiance to an obsolete worldview by

447
00:19:41,630 --> 00:19:39,060
ignorance of the implications of the new

448
00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:41,640
physics and by a hatred of religion and

449
00:19:46,130 --> 00:19:44,310
superstition if they admitted to the

450
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:46,140
reality of psychic abilities such as

451
00:19:50,090 --> 00:19:48,330
telepathy and of the near-death

452
00:19:53,330 --> 00:19:50,100
experience as involving a genuine

453
00:19:55,070 --> 00:19:53,340
separation of mind from body then the

454
00:19:58,340 --> 00:19:55,080
materialistic foundation of their

455
00:20:00,740 --> 00:19:58,350
worldview would crumble the deniers fear

456
00:20:03,170 --> 00:20:00,750
that the demise of materialism would

457
00:20:04,610 --> 00:20:03,180
usher in a return to an age of

458
00:20:08,150 --> 00:20:04,620
superstition of religious persecution

459
00:20:10,940 --> 00:20:08,160
and irrationality this fear is evident

460
00:20:12,980 --> 00:20:10,950
in the apocalyptic strain of some of the

461
00:20:15,980 --> 00:20:12,990
committee committee for scientific

462
00:20:17,810 --> 00:20:15,990
investigation writing for instance the

463
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:17,820
announcement of the founding of the

464
00:20:20,870 --> 00:20:18,930
committee for the scientific

465
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:20,880
investigation of claims the paranormal

466
00:20:25,910 --> 00:20:24,570
stated and I quote perhaps we ought not

467
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:25,920
to assume that the scientific

468
00:20:31,010 --> 00:20:27,930
enlightenment will continue indefinitely

469
00:20:33,010 --> 00:20:31,020
like the Hellenic civilization it may be

470
00:20:36,140 --> 00:20:33,020
overwhelmed by irrationalism

471
00:20:39,110 --> 00:20:36,150
subjectivism and obscurity obscurantism

472
00:20:41,210 --> 00:20:39,120
and then iko iko want to say but these

473
00:20:43,430 --> 00:20:41,220
fears seem to be absolutely groundless

474
00:20:45,770 --> 00:20:43,440
as mentioned above surveys show that

475
00:20:48,050 --> 00:20:45,780
most scientists accept the likely

476
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:48,060
existence of psychic abilities among the

477
00:20:52,700 --> 00:20:50,010
general public belief in the reality of

478
00:20:54,620 --> 00:20:52,710
size phenomena is widespread but polls

479
00:20:56,930 --> 00:20:54,630
have also shown that over 90% of the

480
00:20:58,970 --> 00:20:56,940
public regards scientists as having

481
00:21:01,220 --> 00:20:58,980
considerable or even very great prestige

482
00:21:03,470 --> 00:21:01,230
and many of the leading near-death

483
00:21:05,990 --> 00:21:03,480
experience researchers are respected

484
00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:06,000
cardiologists and neuro scientists and

485
00:21:11,210 --> 00:21:09,120
so I conclude Society is unlikely to

486
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:11,220
return to the dark ages because of

487
00:21:14,810 --> 00:21:14,010
widespread interest in psychic phenomena

488
00:21:22,220 --> 00:21:14,820
and

489
00:21:25,129 --> 00:21:22,230
I have to say you do build a very very

490
00:21:27,590 --> 00:21:25,139
strong case in the book and anyone who's

491
00:21:30,830 --> 00:21:27,600
familiar with your previous books will

492
00:21:33,950 --> 00:21:30,840
appreciate the level of depth you go

493
00:21:35,899 --> 00:21:33,960
into and the extent of you the evidence

494
00:21:37,310 --> 00:21:35,909
and it's all very well documented in the

495
00:21:39,409 --> 00:21:37,320
way you put it together I think it's

496
00:21:42,049 --> 00:21:39,419
very very convincing let's talk a little

497
00:21:44,180 --> 00:21:42,059
bit about the skeptical arguments

498
00:21:46,070 --> 00:21:44,190
against survival because you also

499
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:46,080
address those in the book you jump over

500
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:47,730
on the other side and say hey here's my

501
00:21:53,570 --> 00:21:51,090
best argument against the skeptical

502
00:21:55,519 --> 00:21:53,580
arguments and you spend some time

503
00:21:57,619 --> 00:21:55,529
talking about the materialistic

504
00:22:00,230 --> 00:21:57,629
arguments but you really make pretty

505
00:22:03,049 --> 00:22:00,240
quick work of a lot of that because it's

506
00:22:04,399 --> 00:22:03,059
mostly nonsense and favors there's the

507
00:22:06,950 --> 00:22:04,409
argument that there isn't any evidence

508
00:22:08,210 --> 00:22:06,960
and there that it's all fraud and you

509
00:22:10,039 --> 00:22:08,220
just kind of handle us you say hey

510
00:22:12,889 --> 00:22:10,049
there's a ton of evidence and here it is

511
00:22:14,389 --> 00:22:12,899
and you say with regard to fraud you

512
00:22:15,860 --> 00:22:14,399
know there's always going to be isolated

513
00:22:17,570 --> 00:22:15,870
instances of fraud but it's not

514
00:22:20,389 --> 00:22:17,580
reasonable to think that that's gonna

515
00:22:22,220 --> 00:22:20,399
account for very much of the best

516
00:22:25,269 --> 00:22:22,230
evidence that you put forward in the

517
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:25,279
book but you spend a lot more time

518
00:22:31,909 --> 00:22:29,250
talking about the super SCI explanation

519
00:22:36,519 --> 00:22:31,919
or as you call it in the book the super

520
00:22:40,509 --> 00:22:36,529
ESP hypothesis as a possible explanation

521
00:22:45,129 --> 00:22:40,519
for this survival of consciousness

522
00:22:49,789 --> 00:22:45,139
explain to us maybe start by what is

523
00:22:51,159 --> 00:22:49,799
super ESP and then why you think it

524
00:22:54,919 --> 00:22:51,169
doesn't hold up

525
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:54,929
okay well let's treat this in a sort of

526
00:23:00,529 --> 00:22:57,330
historical manner to see just how the

527
00:23:03,919 --> 00:23:00,539
super ESP explanation came to be

528
00:23:06,019 --> 00:23:03,929
proposed for as long as there have been

529
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:06,029
human beings and for all we know perhaps

530
00:23:12,169 --> 00:23:09,450
even longer there seems to have been

531
00:23:14,389 --> 00:23:12,179
evidence suggesting that human beings

532
00:23:16,220 --> 00:23:14,399
and perhaps other living things survive

533
00:23:18,110 --> 00:23:16,230
the deaths of their bodies I mean we had

534
00:23:20,419 --> 00:23:18,120
that the at Neanderthals they buried

535
00:23:22,879 --> 00:23:20,429
their dead with flowers and jewelry and

536
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:22,889
utensils presumably for use in the next

537
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:23,890
life

538
00:23:31,740 --> 00:23:27,850
so all through human civilization we've

539
00:23:33,180 --> 00:23:31,750
had people believing that they will

540
00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:33,190
survive the deaths of their bodies and

541
00:23:41,070 --> 00:23:36,640
many many people simply accepted it as a

542
00:23:43,980 --> 00:23:41,080
matter of course it wasn't questioned so

543
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:43,990
why do they believe this well every

544
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:46,330
indication seems to be that in all

545
00:23:52,230 --> 00:23:48,610
societies past and present people have

546
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:52,240
experienced certain phenomena that would

547
00:23:58,320 --> 00:23:54,730
lead them to believe in survival I'm

548
00:24:01,049 --> 00:23:58,330
talking about things like near-death

549
00:24:03,419 --> 00:24:01,059
experiences deathbed visions people who

550
00:24:07,250 --> 00:24:03,429
report seeing deceased relatives coming

551
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:10,110
children who remember previous lives in

552
00:24:18,330 --> 00:24:15,650
apparitions which have been reported

553
00:24:21,690 --> 00:24:18,340
from all societies which we have record

554
00:24:26,159 --> 00:24:21,700
and communication with the dead which

555
00:24:27,990 --> 00:24:26,169
also seems to be been found and

556
00:24:31,350 --> 00:24:28,000
virtually all societies of which we have

557
00:24:35,430 --> 00:24:31,360
record so the obvious inference from

558
00:24:38,039 --> 00:24:35,440
this data was that we survived the

559
00:24:40,530 --> 00:24:38,049
deaths of our bodies and sometimes those

560
00:24:45,810 --> 00:24:40,540
who've gone before us can return and

561
00:24:50,100 --> 00:24:45,820
communicate now later on these beliefs

562
00:24:52,020 --> 00:24:50,110
were hardened into various dogmas with

563
00:24:54,180 --> 00:24:52,030
the rise of Agriculture came the rise of

564
00:24:57,990 --> 00:24:54,190
organized religion and priestly castes

565
00:24:59,430 --> 00:24:58,000
and of course layers of dogma were added

566
00:25:01,230 --> 00:24:59,440
to the ancient beliefs in accordance

567
00:25:03,299 --> 00:25:01,240
with the conditions of the various

568
00:25:04,860 --> 00:25:03,309
societies so some societies had peaceful

569
00:25:07,950 --> 00:25:04,870
religions some societies at war like

570
00:25:12,299 --> 00:25:07,960
religions and so forth but they all had

571
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:12,309
various priestly castes this did lead of

572
00:25:17,539 --> 00:25:14,290
course in some places particularly the

573
00:25:19,890 --> 00:25:17,549
West with its fragmented geography into

574
00:25:20,940 --> 00:25:19,900
various religious schisms which

575
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:20,950
sometimes settle their differences

576
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:22,690
violently and then you had the

577
00:25:28,409 --> 00:25:24,610
Scientific Revolution due to people like

578
00:25:31,140 --> 00:25:28,419
Kepler Galileo and Newton now Newton put

579
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:31,150
forward a theory of physics which was

580
00:25:35,130 --> 00:25:33,610
very mechanistic and mechanical the

581
00:25:39,109 --> 00:25:35,140
universe was now seen as a gigantic

582
00:25:43,559 --> 00:25:41,879
and now Newton himself was a religious

583
00:25:45,749 --> 00:25:43,569
man he thought that the planets

584
00:25:48,479 --> 00:25:45,759
originally hurled by the hand of God and

585
00:25:50,339 --> 00:25:48,489
he thought that he thought that human

586
00:25:52,229 --> 00:25:50,349
beings were the sole exception in an

587
00:25:56,429 --> 00:25:52,239
otherwise deterministic mechanistic

588
00:25:58,559 --> 00:25:56,439
universe but his followers philosophers

589
00:26:02,549 --> 00:25:58,569
such as Voltaire Diderot and so forth

590
00:26:05,309 --> 00:26:02,559
they wanted to attack the authority of

591
00:26:07,289 --> 00:26:05,319
the church the horrors of religious wars

592
00:26:10,739 --> 00:26:07,299
were fresh in their minds and so they

593
00:26:12,869 --> 00:26:10,749
used Newtonian physics to do to support

594
00:26:15,389 --> 00:26:12,879
the ancient philosophy of materialism

595
00:26:18,149 --> 00:26:15,399
which essentially says that all that

596
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:18,159
matters is matter and the mind is at

597
00:26:23,369 --> 00:26:21,129
most a useless epiphenomena a by-product

598
00:26:25,709 --> 00:26:23,379
produced by the brain and so therefore

599
00:26:28,679 --> 00:26:25,719
Minds have no causal role in nature the

600
00:26:30,089 --> 00:26:28,689
universe is causally closed and we

601
00:26:35,489 --> 00:26:30,099
should not believe in superstitious

602
00:26:38,819 --> 00:26:35,499
things or in organized religion then of

603
00:26:42,589 --> 00:26:38,829
course Darwin came along and with his

604
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:42,599
theory of natural selection based upon

605
00:26:47,609 --> 00:26:45,129
natural selection operating upon random

606
00:26:49,529 --> 00:26:47,619
variation in order to Alfred Russel

607
00:26:51,869 --> 00:26:49,539
Wallace came along right Darwin and

608
00:26:53,399 --> 00:26:51,879
Wallace discovered or invented theories

609
00:26:55,549 --> 00:26:53,409
their theory of evolution by natural

610
00:26:57,689 --> 00:26:55,559
selection at just about the same time

611
00:27:00,079 --> 00:26:57,699
Wallace probably came up with it first

612
00:27:02,549 --> 00:27:00,089
it's hard to say and then they put the

613
00:27:06,449 --> 00:27:02,559
Darwin basically panicked and decided to

614
00:27:12,209 --> 00:27:06,459
publish his book so anyway this was a

615
00:27:15,629 --> 00:27:12,219
further nail in the coffin of well it

616
00:27:20,539 --> 00:27:15,639
was it was further fuller ammunition for

617
00:27:22,859 --> 00:27:20,549
the militant atheists and so in response

618
00:27:25,109 --> 00:27:22,869
the British and American Society of

619
00:27:28,619 --> 00:27:25,119
psychical Research were formed in first

620
00:27:32,129 --> 00:27:28,629
in England later on in Boston and they

621
00:27:36,329 --> 00:27:32,139
were horrified by the materialism which

622
00:27:38,039 --> 00:27:36,339
was helping to sweep away spiritual

623
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:38,049
beliefs and so they wanted to take on

624
00:27:43,529 --> 00:27:41,129
the materialists up their own game

625
00:27:48,599 --> 00:27:43,539
they want to find scientific evidence

626
00:27:53,509 --> 00:27:48,609
for survival and so they did they found

627
00:27:58,070 --> 00:27:55,419
and from communication through mediums

628
00:28:00,619 --> 00:27:58,080
so then they seem to have good evidence

629
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:00,629
good experimental evidence that in favor

630
00:28:10,419 --> 00:28:05,450
of survival the hypothesis that

631
00:28:13,159 --> 00:28:10,429
extrasensory perception could be used to

632
00:28:15,379 --> 00:28:13,169
explain these mediumistic communications

633
00:28:17,810 --> 00:28:15,389
was put forward it was perhaps the

634
00:28:19,310 --> 00:28:17,820
mediums are very gifted in terms of

635
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:19,320
extrasensory perception in terms of

636
00:28:22,970 --> 00:28:21,210
'kathy and clairvoyance and they're

637
00:28:28,999 --> 00:28:22,980
simply reading the minds of the sitters

638
00:28:30,649 --> 00:28:29,009
in order to infants convey messages that

639
00:28:31,970 --> 00:28:30,659
seem to be from the deceased but are

640
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:31,980
actually from the minds of the sitters

641
00:28:38,509 --> 00:28:35,570
right so that's that's your super ESP

642
00:28:40,340 --> 00:28:38,519
hypothesis right no no not yet that's

643
00:28:43,039 --> 00:28:40,350
only that's the ordinary ESP yeah yeah

644
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:43,049
that's a ordinary ESP okay so what

645
00:28:47,359 --> 00:28:44,850
happened then was an experiment was

646
00:28:50,299 --> 00:28:47,369
proposed the so called proxy sittings

647
00:28:52,340 --> 00:28:50,309
and that's where one person sits with

648
00:28:54,739 --> 00:28:52,350
the medium on behalf of a third person

649
00:28:56,269 --> 00:28:54,749
who was not present and the person who

650
00:28:59,840 --> 00:28:56,279
sits with the medium is told nothing

651
00:29:02,269 --> 00:28:59,850
more then then the deceased person's

652
00:29:03,649 --> 00:29:02,279
name and date of death so they don't

653
00:29:05,749 --> 00:29:03,659
know the person you know nothing about

654
00:29:08,210 --> 00:29:05,759
person except for that they go see the

655
00:29:11,090 --> 00:29:08,220
medium on behalf of that person and the

656
00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:11,100
so called proxy sittings and then see if

657
00:29:14,509 --> 00:29:12,809
you get results and see if the results

658
00:29:16,519 --> 00:29:14,519
are as good as if the person was there

659
00:29:19,639 --> 00:29:16,529
and what they found is that the proxy

660
00:29:22,820 --> 00:29:19,649
sittings gave results every bit as good

661
00:29:23,210 --> 00:29:22,830
as if the sitter who knew the person was

662
00:29:26,239 --> 00:29:23,220
there

663
00:29:28,820 --> 00:29:26,249
so this conclusively proved false the

664
00:29:30,950 --> 00:29:28,830
idea that the medium was either fishing

665
00:29:32,629 --> 00:29:30,960
for information in other words looking

666
00:29:34,999 --> 00:29:32,639
for visual cues and following up on

667
00:29:37,039 --> 00:29:35,009
visual cues and so forth and Chris

668
00:29:38,930 --> 00:29:37,049
remind everyone what time frame we're

669
00:29:41,149 --> 00:29:38,940
talking about here and who are some of

670
00:29:43,850 --> 00:29:41,159
the key players both mediums and

671
00:29:47,629 --> 00:29:43,860
scientists who are investigating and

672
00:29:49,279 --> 00:29:47,639
really scrutinizing very carefully these

673
00:29:52,909 --> 00:29:49,289
mediums for any kind of fraud or

674
00:29:54,350 --> 00:29:52,919
impropriety throughout some names well

675
00:29:56,029 --> 00:29:54,360
the British and American Society of

676
00:29:59,029 --> 00:29:56,039
cyclical research were really in full

677
00:30:01,359 --> 00:29:59,039
swing from about the Year 1800 to about

678
00:30:03,890 --> 00:30:01,369
the years I don't know

679
00:30:06,500 --> 00:30:03,900
1935 1940 though

680
00:30:08,900 --> 00:30:06,510
the heyday of psychical research into

681
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:08,910
these things and some of the people were

682
00:30:15,740 --> 00:30:13,250
oh the physicists are all Arbor Lodge

683
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:15,750
who at the time was one of the most

684
00:30:21,650 --> 00:30:19,290
respected intellectuals and scientists

685
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:21,660
of his day right that's absolutely right

686
00:30:28,850 --> 00:30:24,570
and there were various let's see who

687
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:28,860
else was there sir Oliver Lodge Henry

688
00:30:35,510 --> 00:30:32,330
Sidgwick the Cambridge philosopher

689
00:30:37,150 --> 00:30:35,520
Frederik Meijer scholar of classics at

690
00:30:40,700 --> 00:30:37,160
Cambridge

691
00:30:43,490 --> 00:30:40,710
mr. Hodgson and several others William

692
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:43,500
James in United States so there are some

693
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:45,810
of the very best intellectuals of the

694
00:30:53,750 --> 00:30:49,490
time scientists philosophers statesmen

695
00:30:58,610 --> 00:30:53,760
yeah so anyway the proxy sittings were

696
00:31:00,770 --> 00:30:58,620
invented and so it ruled out it ruled

697
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:00,780
out fishing where the medium fishes for

698
00:31:04,910 --> 00:31:02,970
information based upon various clues you

699
00:31:07,460 --> 00:31:04,920
know they say it might say well I see a

700
00:31:10,070 --> 00:31:07,470
man with dark hair if the person goes

701
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:10,080
they go oh yes yes he's a man with dark

702
00:31:16,460 --> 00:31:13,770
hair I see a woman with blonde hair no

703
00:31:19,010 --> 00:31:16,470
no no okay let's forget that that's

704
00:31:20,540 --> 00:31:19,020
that's a technique of fishing so proxy

705
00:31:22,940 --> 00:31:20,550
sittings this French effectively ruled

706
00:31:26,810 --> 00:31:22,950
out fishing for information and they

707
00:31:29,300 --> 00:31:26,820
also ruled out telepathy between the

708
00:31:31,250 --> 00:31:29,310
medium and the sitter because the sitter

709
00:31:33,050 --> 00:31:31,260
didn't know any of this information yet

710
00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:33,060
correct information was conveyed again

711
00:31:39,770 --> 00:31:36,240
and again just as good as if the sitter

712
00:31:43,910 --> 00:31:39,780
had known a person question so what

713
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:43,920
happened was that this was since the

714
00:31:48,830 --> 00:31:45,330
proxy sittings ruled out telepathy

715
00:31:50,870 --> 00:31:48,840
between medium and sitter the extra

716
00:31:53,660 --> 00:31:50,880
sensory perception hypothesis of

717
00:31:55,790 --> 00:31:53,670
communication was extended further and

718
00:31:59,360 --> 00:31:55,800
further and further in order to cover

719
00:32:01,340 --> 00:31:59,370
proxy cases in order to cover the

720
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:01,350
so-called drop in cases where somebody

721
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:04,890
drops in and unknown to the medium

722
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:10,050
unknown to the sitter it also provides

723
00:32:14,540 --> 00:32:12,330
information and later turns out to be

724
00:32:17,220 --> 00:32:14,550
correct so give us an example of how

725
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:17,230
this ever-expanding high paw

726
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:19,570
this gets spun out there I mean well how

727
00:32:26,190 --> 00:32:22,410
do they say it it's supposed to work

728
00:32:29,250 --> 00:32:26,200
with a degree that seldom if ever seen

729
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:29,260
apart from such cases of communication

730
00:32:35,490 --> 00:32:32,650
with the alleged deceased in question if

731
00:32:37,350 --> 00:32:35,500
you look at if you look at extrasensory

732
00:32:40,039 --> 00:32:37,360
examples of telepathy and clairvoyance

733
00:32:43,650 --> 00:32:40,049
in real life they're very low-level

734
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:43,660
sorts of events telepathy is Latin for

735
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:46,210
distant feeling tella meaning distance

736
00:32:49,260 --> 00:32:48,730
pathy meaning feeling as in sympathy and

737
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:49,270
empathy

738
00:32:53,970 --> 00:32:51,490
so telepathy literally means distant

739
00:32:58,110 --> 00:32:53,980
feeling clairvoyance means clear vision

740
00:32:59,640 --> 00:32:58,120
and in real life these sorts of

741
00:33:01,020 --> 00:32:59,650
abilities almost always work between

742
00:33:03,750 --> 00:33:01,030
people who have some sort of close

743
00:33:05,250 --> 00:33:03,760
emotional connection in the proxy

744
00:33:07,620 --> 00:33:05,260
sittings these people had no close

745
00:33:12,060 --> 00:33:07,630
emotional connection yet extrasensory

746
00:33:14,820 --> 00:33:12,070
perception was said to exist just as

747
00:33:18,950 --> 00:33:14,830
good as ever with no reduction in

748
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:18,960
ability the theory of super ESP takes

749
00:33:24,539 --> 00:33:21,610
the theory of extrasensory perception

750
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:24,549
and it postulates that the medium mind

751
00:33:30,090 --> 00:33:26,410
the meeting the mind of the medium has

752
00:33:34,110 --> 00:33:30,100
these super normal abilities to access

753
00:33:35,970 --> 00:33:34,120
information anywhere anytime regardless

754
00:33:37,500 --> 00:33:35,980
of from the minds of people regardless

755
00:33:39,330 --> 00:33:37,510
of what those people are thinking or

756
00:33:41,730 --> 00:33:39,340
mind regardless of what those people

757
00:33:44,250 --> 00:33:41,740
might be doing unlimited ability to

758
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:44,260
access the minds from books which are an

759
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:46,210
unknown locations on topics of no

760
00:33:52,980 --> 00:33:50,650
interest to the to the medium and then

761
00:33:54,659 --> 00:33:52,990
it's extended even further to assume

762
00:33:57,510 --> 00:33:54,669
that it can then dress up this

763
00:34:01,770 --> 00:33:57,520
information from the perspective of the

764
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:01,780
deceased person in question and it gets

765
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:02,770
even worse than that

766
00:34:07,260 --> 00:34:04,690
the problem with super ESP is it's it's

767
00:34:09,540 --> 00:34:07,270
continually continually extended to

768
00:34:11,669 --> 00:34:09,550
cover each new case which cannot be

769
00:34:14,340 --> 00:34:11,679
explained on the basis of ordinary

770
00:34:16,770 --> 00:34:14,350
extrasensory perception Chris let's talk

771
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:16,780
a little bit about proof at the end of

772
00:34:21,599 --> 00:34:19,690
the book you can clue by saying that

773
00:34:23,909 --> 00:34:21,609
there are three levels of proof proof

774
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:23,919
beyond all doubt proof beyond all

775
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:27,010
reasonable doubt and preponderance of

776
00:34:29,710 --> 00:34:29,050
evidence overcoming the preponderance of

777
00:34:31,359 --> 00:34:29,720
evidence or

778
00:34:34,589 --> 00:34:31,369
accepting the preponderance of evidence

779
00:34:38,109 --> 00:34:34,599
tell us where you fall in that scale

780
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:38,119
regarding the belief that consciousness

781
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:41,570
survives bodily death in that chapter I

782
00:34:48,609 --> 00:34:45,050
have a section titled theory of

783
00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:48,619
knowledge which I first define knowledge

784
00:34:52,859 --> 00:34:50,510
and I would define knowledge as a belief

785
00:34:55,810 --> 00:34:52,869
that meets the following three criteria

786
00:34:58,170 --> 00:34:55,820
first of all it is justified by a

787
00:35:01,540 --> 00:34:58,180
critical evaluation of the evidence and

788
00:35:04,150 --> 00:35:01,550
so therefore we have no good reason to

789
00:35:05,910 --> 00:35:04,160
think it is true I'm sorry we have good

790
00:35:08,589 --> 00:35:05,920
reason to think it is true and

791
00:35:12,990 --> 00:35:08,599
furthermore we have no good reason to

792
00:35:17,349 --> 00:35:15,130
so for instance consider my belief that

793
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:17,359
I have only one brother I believe this

794
00:35:20,770 --> 00:35:18,770
to be true because I was raised

795
00:35:22,330 --> 00:35:20,780
alongside him and I never saw my parents

796
00:35:24,580 --> 00:35:22,340
bring home and raise another boy I

797
00:35:28,450 --> 00:35:24,590
therefore have good reason to consider

798
00:35:30,550 --> 00:35:28,460
this belief true furthermore I have

799
00:35:32,890 --> 00:35:30,560
never heard any rumors about my mother

800
00:35:36,370 --> 00:35:32,900
giving up a boy for adoption before I

801
00:35:38,170 --> 00:35:36,380
was born and nor has any one bearing

802
00:35:40,359 --> 00:35:38,180
family resemblance or not ever

803
00:35:42,940 --> 00:35:40,369
approached me claiming to be my

804
00:35:45,310 --> 00:35:42,950
long-lost brother I therefore have no

805
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:45,320
good reason or any reason for that

806
00:35:50,290 --> 00:35:47,570
matter to suspect that my belief may not

807
00:35:53,710 --> 00:35:50,300
be true now could I possibly be mistaken

808
00:35:55,690 --> 00:35:53,720
in my belief of course but my point is

809
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:55,700
that I have no good reason to think that

810
00:35:58,930 --> 00:35:57,170
my I have good reason to think that my

811
00:36:00,670 --> 00:35:58,940
belief is correct and no good reason

812
00:36:02,530 --> 00:36:00,680
whatsoever to think it may be false I

813
00:36:03,940 --> 00:36:02,540
therefore consider my belief that I have

814
00:36:05,710 --> 00:36:03,950
only one brother to be an item of

815
00:36:08,859 --> 00:36:05,720
knowledge in other words I consider it

816
00:36:12,540 --> 00:36:08,869
to be a fact so knowledge is a category

817
00:36:16,390 --> 00:36:14,740
it's those beliefs we have good reason

818
00:36:20,740 --> 00:36:16,400
to think are true and no good reason to

819
00:36:25,349 --> 00:36:20,750
think may be false and so I consider a

820
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:25,359
fact to be an item of knowledge and

821
00:36:29,890 --> 00:36:27,770
after a fairly long discussion which I

822
00:36:34,150 --> 00:36:29,900
really can't do justice and a brief

823
00:36:36,970 --> 00:36:34,160
phone call I do conclude that as others

824
00:36:38,349 --> 00:36:36,980
before me have concluded survival of

825
00:36:41,380 --> 00:36:38,359
consciousness past the point of

826
00:36:43,540 --> 00:36:41,390
biological death is a fact a fact in

827
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:43,550
what you say in the book is that it's

828
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:46,610
proven to you beyond all reasonable

829
00:36:50,770 --> 00:36:49,130
doubt and that's I think great it's

830
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:50,780
great that you come out and are that

831
00:36:55,630 --> 00:36:53,210
bold to say that because as you know

832
00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:55,640
most folks who we expect to be

833
00:36:58,990 --> 00:36:57,650
proponents usually fall into that well

834
00:37:01,810 --> 00:36:59,000
you know the preponderance of the

835
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:01,820
evidence overwhelmingly suggests but

836
00:37:06,100 --> 00:37:03,530
they won't go and say hey beyond

837
00:37:07,990 --> 00:37:06,110
reasonable doubt this is it and and and

838
00:37:10,570 --> 00:37:08,000
you kind of push it to that that next

839
00:37:14,830 --> 00:37:10,580
level what is that what does that mean

840
00:37:16,870 --> 00:37:14,840
for you why why is it important to go

841
00:37:18,690 --> 00:37:16,880
there and say hey this is really the way

842
00:37:23,260 --> 00:37:18,700
it is it's beyond all reasonable doubt

843
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:23,270
you survive your bodily death why is it

844
00:37:27,490 --> 00:37:24,610
important hmm

845
00:37:30,250 --> 00:37:27,500
what because I mean let's let's be real

846
00:37:32,110 --> 00:37:30,260
right I mean most to take NDE

847
00:37:33,820 --> 00:37:32,120
researchers when you really dig into

848
00:37:36,430 --> 00:37:33,830
these nan de researches you can tell

849
00:37:38,380 --> 00:37:36,440
that's what they believe right but very

850
00:37:40,690 --> 00:37:38,390
very few of them say it that way

851
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:40,700
they always just kind of backpedal a

852
00:37:44,830 --> 00:37:43,010
little bit play it safe with the party

853
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:44,840
line if you will that hey the evidence

854
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:46,370
it's all up in the air but it seems to

855
00:37:51,970 --> 00:37:48,410
be leaning this way and I understand

856
00:37:53,980 --> 00:37:51,980
you're not an academic in an institution

857
00:37:56,650 --> 00:37:53,990
that requires you to kind of hold any

858
00:38:00,670 --> 00:37:56,660
party line but you do understand that

859
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:00,680
your position is pretty bold right yes

860
00:38:07,150 --> 00:38:04,370
it is I also think that as I think that

861
00:38:08,620 --> 00:38:07,160
it's an important statement to make as I

862
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:08,630
said before at the beginning of this

863
00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:11,410
conversation I think that if more people

864
00:38:19,060 --> 00:38:16,250
recognized that survival is a fact they

865
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:19,070
would first of all I think it would

866
00:38:23,370 --> 00:38:20,450
bring a lot more happiness to their

867
00:38:28,030 --> 00:38:23,380
lives it would bring them a lot more

868
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:28,040
optimism and it would reduce cynicism I

869
00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:31,610
think it would reduce anger and

870
00:38:36,490 --> 00:38:34,730
vindictiveness bitterness and I think it

871
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:36,500
would lead people to lead better lives

872
00:38:40,750 --> 00:38:38,810
but are there a lot of steps in between

873
00:38:43,030 --> 00:38:40,760
there Chris I mean that's the one thing

874
00:38:46,450 --> 00:38:43,040
I guess that I took away from this and

875
00:38:49,390 --> 00:38:46,460
I'm on a similar journey that you are on

876
00:38:51,460 --> 00:38:49,400
in terms of this information this data

877
00:38:54,610 --> 00:38:51,470
this knowledge I think it can be

878
00:38:55,900 --> 00:38:54,620
personally transformative I have not had

879
00:38:58,440 --> 00:38:55,910
a near-death experience

880
00:39:01,720 --> 00:38:58,450
I haven't had any profound spiritual

881
00:39:04,569 --> 00:39:01,730
transformational experiences I've had an

882
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:04,579
experience of transformation via the

883
00:39:10,690 --> 00:39:08,210
data via the experiences of others that

884
00:39:13,299 --> 00:39:10,700
the people that I respect that I think

885
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:13,309
have done a fair job of trying to sort

886
00:39:18,700 --> 00:39:15,650
this thing out and said hey this is

887
00:39:20,859 --> 00:39:18,710
where the truth seems to lie so I'm with

888
00:39:23,079 --> 00:39:20,869
you on all that but I have to tell you

889
00:39:26,849 --> 00:39:23,089
the people that I encounter in my

890
00:39:30,279 --> 00:39:26,859
day-to-day life one they're not usually

891
00:39:33,609 --> 00:39:30,289
persuaded to change their beliefs by

892
00:39:35,859 --> 00:39:33,619
data alone I don't know why I'm kind of

893
00:39:37,690 --> 00:39:35,869
wired that way but I found that a lot of

894
00:39:40,569 --> 00:39:37,700
people don't seem to be wired that way

895
00:39:44,109 --> 00:39:40,579
but number two what seems to get in the

896
00:39:47,470 --> 00:39:44,119
way for people are a lot of the steps in

897
00:39:50,470 --> 00:39:47,480
between ok that's what the data says and

898
00:39:54,339 --> 00:39:50,480
on the other hand therefore this is how

899
00:39:56,020 --> 00:39:54,349
I should live my life I mean there's a

900
00:40:00,370 --> 00:39:56,030
lot of questions there there's a

901
00:40:03,010 --> 00:40:00,380
thousand questions between me accepting

902
00:40:05,859 --> 00:40:03,020
the survival of consciousness is real

903
00:40:09,970 --> 00:40:05,869
and then me incorporating that into my

904
00:40:12,460 --> 00:40:09,980
life do we live in a you know Carl Sagan

905
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:12,470
wrote a book many years ago a demon

906
00:40:18,130 --> 00:40:15,770
haunted world hey do we live in a demon

907
00:40:20,230 --> 00:40:18,140
haunted world science has rescued us

908
00:40:22,380 --> 00:40:20,240
from that demon haunted world do you

909
00:40:25,269 --> 00:40:22,390
want to send us back to it is the world

910
00:40:27,730 --> 00:40:25,279
demon haunted I mean these are the kind

911
00:40:30,609 --> 00:40:27,740
of questions that I think spring to mind

912
00:40:33,670 --> 00:40:30,619
for people when they're faced with the

913
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:33,680
idea that consciousness survives death

914
00:40:38,950 --> 00:40:37,010
but they're not filled in with all the

915
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:38,960
answers to all the questions that that

916
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:42,170
stirs up what do you think well as I

917
00:40:46,829 --> 00:40:44,690
said before I think that my book shows

918
00:40:50,559 --> 00:40:46,839
there's a third alternative between

919
00:40:52,599 --> 00:40:50,569
blind religious faith and pseudo

920
00:40:53,589 --> 00:40:52,609
scientific doctrine of materialism but

921
00:40:57,730 --> 00:40:53,599
that's not what I'm talking about

922
00:41:00,760 --> 00:40:57,740
I accept your third rail I'm all over it

923
00:41:03,730 --> 00:41:00,770
I hear the data consciousness survives

924
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:03,740
death huge implications for me now what

925
00:41:08,349 --> 00:41:05,690
does that mean what what does that mean

926
00:41:10,329 --> 00:41:08,359
about is it a demon haunted world do I

927
00:41:11,770 --> 00:41:10,339
have to be afraid of

928
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:11,780
what does this mean in terms of survival

929
00:41:14,950 --> 00:41:14,450
how long do I survive how many lives do

930
00:41:17,289 --> 00:41:14,960
I live

931
00:41:19,839 --> 00:41:17,299
do I go to heaven there are a thousand

932
00:41:21,819 --> 00:41:19,849
questions that immediately spring to

933
00:41:23,829 --> 00:41:21,829
mind that are the real questions that

934
00:41:26,620 --> 00:41:23,839
people have you know we play this little

935
00:41:29,410 --> 00:41:26,630
skeptic believer science versus religion

936
00:41:32,079 --> 00:41:29,420
stuff and that just gets played out in

937
00:41:34,599 --> 00:41:32,089
this cartoonish way but the what people

938
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:34,609
are really worried about are the the

939
00:41:38,950 --> 00:41:36,890
personal questions that lie underneath

940
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:38,960
that so you've done a fine job in your

941
00:41:43,299 --> 00:41:41,690
book of equipping people with the

942
00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:43,309
information they need to kind of

943
00:41:49,450 --> 00:41:46,250
approach that first question that okay I

944
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:49,460
can as a reasonable person accept that

945
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:52,010
consciousness survives death Bravo

946
00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:52,490
hooray

947
00:41:57,339 --> 00:41:55,250
but right beneath that are the really

948
00:41:59,410 --> 00:41:57,349
important questions and what are people

949
00:42:01,539 --> 00:41:59,420
supposed to do about those questions I

950
00:42:04,180 --> 00:42:01,549
mean it's it's not just a matter of a

951
00:42:07,270 --> 00:42:04,190
consciousness survives death so let's

952
00:42:09,069 --> 00:42:07,280
save the planet and and recycle those

953
00:42:11,260 --> 00:42:09,079
aren't the questions of course why not

954
00:42:13,630 --> 00:42:11,270
deeper question that's why I wrote the

955
00:42:15,460 --> 00:42:13,640
final section of my book the final

956
00:42:18,250 --> 00:42:15,470
section of my book is titled what the

957
00:42:20,620 --> 00:42:18,260
dead say so once I've convinced people

958
00:42:23,230 --> 00:42:20,630
that the dead are having facts survived

959
00:42:27,730 --> 00:42:23,240
and are indeed communicating through

960
00:42:30,430 --> 00:42:27,740
gifted human mediums then I discuss what

961
00:42:34,150 --> 00:42:30,440
they say and it's really those messages

962
00:42:37,690 --> 00:42:34,160
I suppose which are sources of wisdom

963
00:42:40,809 --> 00:42:37,700
and optimism and I don't think there's

964
00:42:42,789 --> 00:42:40,819
anything that anything particularly

965
00:42:46,510 --> 00:42:42,799
horrific in there there's nothing about

966
00:42:49,809 --> 00:42:46,520
eternal Hellfire it does the dead do say

967
00:42:53,170 --> 00:42:49,819
that the old saying what we we we said

968
00:42:53,470 --> 00:42:53,180
we shall so as we reap that has truth to

969
00:42:55,539 --> 00:42:53,480
it

970
00:43:00,039 --> 00:42:55,549
but they also say there's no eternal

971
00:43:03,130 --> 00:43:00,049
Hellfire they talk about a gradual

972
00:43:06,940 --> 00:43:03,140
process of development on on the other

973
00:43:10,150 --> 00:43:06,950
side many of us will return to this

974
00:43:11,770 --> 00:43:10,160
earth to reincarnate prep and they say

975
00:43:14,500 --> 00:43:11,780
that this does not happen fifty a

976
00:43:16,990 --> 00:43:14,510
hundred a thousand times the average

977
00:43:19,420 --> 00:43:17,000
human being according to the deceased

978
00:43:22,630 --> 00:43:19,430
communicators only reincarnates two

979
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:22,640
three perhaps four times at most

980
00:43:29,890 --> 00:43:26,450
so if people have questions like that

981
00:43:31,779 --> 00:43:29,900
all the all they need to do is simply

982
00:43:33,579 --> 00:43:31,789
read the very last section of my book

983
00:43:35,829 --> 00:43:33,589
you know I'm kind of with you on that

984
00:43:38,079 --> 00:43:35,839
Chris but as you know those accounts

985
00:43:40,450 --> 00:43:38,089
they vary tremendous I don't think so

986
00:43:42,069 --> 00:43:40,460
and I don't think so I find I find

987
00:43:44,079 --> 00:43:42,079
enormous similarities between different

988
00:43:46,479 --> 00:43:44,089
accounts I I explicitly point them out

989
00:43:50,259 --> 00:43:46,489
well you know we've talked to folks on

990
00:43:52,390 --> 00:43:50,269
this show that have all sorts of varying

991
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:52,400
ideas about that people who are both

992
00:43:57,700 --> 00:43:55,130
mediumistic people who channel people

993
00:44:00,430 --> 00:43:57,710
who do all sorts of kind of things and

994
00:44:03,220 --> 00:44:00,440
you can also look over in the near death

995
00:44:05,710 --> 00:44:03,230
experience literature which also gives

996
00:44:09,940 --> 00:44:05,720
these accounts of direct accounts of I

997
00:44:13,029 --> 00:44:09,950
mean go to in de RF dot org Jeff Long's

998
00:44:15,069 --> 00:44:13,039
website where he's compiled 2000 of

999
00:44:17,910 --> 00:44:15,079
those accounts and they vary

1000
00:44:20,950 --> 00:44:17,920
tremendously I mean you'll hear very

1001
00:44:24,009 --> 00:44:20,960
religiously oriented I met Jesus and he

1002
00:44:26,710 --> 00:44:24,019
said this versus you'll hear all sorts

1003
00:44:28,890 --> 00:44:26,720
of different accounts so don't we really

1004
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:28,900
have to be a little bit careful when we

1005
00:44:34,390 --> 00:44:32,450
start doing content analysis there and

1006
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:34,400
saying we can really pull it apart and

1007
00:44:39,069 --> 00:44:37,130
this is what it indicates I don't think

1008
00:44:42,269 --> 00:44:39,079
that's the case I can't comment on

1009
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:42,279
Long's longest work there are I have a

1010
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:44,450
whole section called near-death

1011
00:44:47,739 --> 00:44:46,130
experiences across cultures and my

1012
00:44:51,029 --> 00:44:47,749
second book signs to the near-death

1013
00:44:53,079 --> 00:44:51,039
experience and analyze accounts

1014
00:44:57,339 --> 00:44:53,089
near-death experience accounts from

1015
00:45:03,130 --> 00:44:57,349
various cultures China India Maori New

1016
00:45:06,069 --> 00:45:03,140
Zealand various other the North American

1017
00:45:07,930 --> 00:45:06,079
aboriginals and what I found is that

1018
00:45:10,029 --> 00:45:07,940
journeys to other worlds out-of-body

1019
00:45:12,999 --> 00:45:10,039
experiences and encounters with the

1020
00:45:14,799 --> 00:45:13,009
deceased and otherworldly figures seem

1021
00:45:17,319 --> 00:45:14,809
to be the most universal features of the

1022
00:45:20,589 --> 00:45:17,329
near-death experience borders of some

1023
00:45:23,650 --> 00:45:20,599
sort are also found in accounts from

1024
00:45:26,019 --> 00:45:23,660
different cultures but tunnel and life

1025
00:45:28,870 --> 00:45:26,029
review experiences seem to be mostly

1026
00:45:30,579 --> 00:45:28,880
confined to the west so I disagree that

1027
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:30,589
near-death experiences are vast and

1028
00:45:36,590 --> 00:45:34,290
varied no two are exactly the like but

1029
00:45:39,050 --> 00:45:36,600
myself and other researchers have found

1030
00:45:40,250 --> 00:45:39,060
very great similarities between the

1031
00:45:42,410 --> 00:45:40,260
near-death experience I think you're

1032
00:45:44,540 --> 00:45:42,420
taking what I said in the wrong way I

1033
00:45:47,210 --> 00:45:44,550
mean the skeptical argument that their

1034
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:47,220
vast and varied no I'm not going there I

1035
00:45:53,930 --> 00:45:50,690
mean I'm very much a believer that

1036
00:45:58,190 --> 00:45:53,940
near-death experience accounts bring us

1037
00:45:59,990 --> 00:45:58,200
closer to a deeper understanding of part

1038
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:00,000
of what happens in this journey beyond

1039
00:46:06,140 --> 00:46:03,690
our physical death so that I'm not going

1040
00:46:08,030 --> 00:46:06,150
there but I do think and I think many

1041
00:46:09,140 --> 00:46:08,040
people would agree with me I've had the

1042
00:46:10,460 --> 00:46:09,150
leading near-death experience

1043
00:46:12,530 --> 00:46:10,470
researchers on the show and they've

1044
00:46:15,500 --> 00:46:12,540
agreed that there really isn't a good

1045
00:46:17,180 --> 00:46:15,510
explanation for some of the variety sure

1046
00:46:18,950 --> 00:46:17,190
we can we can look for the similar

1047
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:18,960
patterns and those are important and

1048
00:46:24,530 --> 00:46:21,090
there's certainly important when you're

1049
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:24,540
debating or arguing against a skeptic

1050
00:46:27,860 --> 00:46:26,730
who says gee we can't we have to throw

1051
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:27,870
out all these accounts because they're

1052
00:46:31,130 --> 00:46:29,610
all over the board no that's not the

1053
00:46:33,260 --> 00:46:31,140
case but if we really try and do a

1054
00:46:34,850 --> 00:46:33,270
Content analysis I think a lot of

1055
00:46:36,650 --> 00:46:34,860
near-death experience researchers will

1056
00:46:39,500 --> 00:46:36,660
agree that there they're just they're

1057
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:39,510
challenging material it can be all over

1058
00:46:44,990 --> 00:46:41,370
the board and the same thing with

1059
00:46:48,140 --> 00:46:45,000
mediumistic readings I mean they can

1060
00:46:49,790 --> 00:46:48,150
just be they can be very challenging in

1061
00:46:50,210 --> 00:46:49,800
terms of figuring all that out but you

1062
00:46:52,970 --> 00:46:50,220
know what

1063
00:46:54,710 --> 00:46:52,980
I'm glad you addressed it in that

1064
00:46:57,380 --> 00:46:54,720
section of the book and maybe that's

1065
00:47:00,140 --> 00:46:57,390
where someone has to take over and take

1066
00:47:01,850 --> 00:47:00,150
their own personal interpretation of the

1067
00:47:02,630 --> 00:47:01,860
material and decide how they're going to

1068
00:47:05,690 --> 00:47:02,640
take it forward

1069
00:47:08,860 --> 00:47:05,700
so let's do this in the little bit of

1070
00:47:11,300 --> 00:47:08,870
time that we have left let's talk about

1071
00:47:14,210 --> 00:47:11,310
where you go from here because this is

1072
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:14,220
kind of an important wrap-up for you I

1073
00:47:21,260 --> 00:47:18,450
mean this was a a trilogy of books and a

1074
00:47:22,510 --> 00:47:21,270
fantastic three book set that you put

1075
00:47:24,710 --> 00:47:22,520
together

1076
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:24,720
where do you go from here with this

1077
00:47:33,290 --> 00:47:27,450
Chris I'm not really sure to be honest

1078
00:47:34,730 --> 00:47:33,300
with you we've I wrote an article in the

1079
00:47:36,260 --> 00:47:34,740
journal of near-death studies in

1080
00:47:39,770 --> 00:47:36,270
response to an article written by a

1081
00:47:42,860 --> 00:47:39,780
sceptical anesthesiologist named gerald

1082
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:42,870
Worley and he attempted to debunk the

1083
00:47:48,270 --> 00:47:44,970
famous Pam Reynolds near-death

1084
00:47:52,590 --> 00:47:48,280
experience which occurred while she was

1085
00:47:54,450 --> 00:47:52,600
clinically dead basically briefly they

1086
00:47:57,420 --> 00:47:54,460
had to operate remove an aneurysm from

1087
00:48:01,170 --> 00:47:57,430
her brainstem and to do so they had to

1088
00:48:02,700 --> 00:48:01,180
clinically kill her they had to stop her

1089
00:48:05,580 --> 00:48:02,710
heart that the drain all the blood from

1090
00:48:07,770 --> 00:48:05,590
her body and then remove the aneurysm

1091
00:48:09,359 --> 00:48:07,780
from the base of her brain and during

1092
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:09,369
this experience she had one of the

1093
00:48:14,190 --> 00:48:11,290
deepest near-death experiences ever

1094
00:48:16,380 --> 00:48:14,200
recorded showing many of the classic

1095
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:16,390
features found in most near-death

1096
00:48:21,470 --> 00:48:18,490
experiences from around the world such

1097
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:21,480
as for instance feelings of peace

1098
00:48:26,910 --> 00:48:24,490
out-of-body experience travel to an

1099
00:48:29,550 --> 00:48:26,920
otherworldly real realm and meeting with

1100
00:48:31,140 --> 00:48:29,560
deceased relatives now some people say

1101
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:31,150
near-death experiences are all over the

1102
00:48:35,940 --> 00:48:33,850
map no the best ones and most of them

1103
00:48:38,370 --> 00:48:35,950
include those three core elements

1104
00:48:39,870 --> 00:48:38,380
including those experiences found in

1105
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:39,880
different cultures I don't care where

1106
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:41,410
you're looking you look in Guam you can

1107
00:48:48,150 --> 00:48:45,850
look in Maori New Zealand American

1108
00:48:49,740 --> 00:48:48,160
aboriginals wherever those core

1109
00:48:53,300 --> 00:48:49,750
experiences will be found in near-death

1110
00:48:56,099 --> 00:48:53,310
experiences any disagree any

1111
00:48:59,010 --> 00:48:56,109
idiosyncrasies will be found yes but

1112
00:49:01,320 --> 00:48:59,020
they're usually trivial Chris why do we

1113
00:49:03,540 --> 00:49:01,330
want to go there I mean why do we want

1114
00:49:05,550 --> 00:49:03,550
to say something like that that that

1115
00:49:08,730 --> 00:49:05,560
seems to suggest that we understand

1116
00:49:10,460 --> 00:49:08,740
what's going on what realm they're going

1117
00:49:13,349 --> 00:49:10,470
to what dimension they're going to

1118
00:49:16,170 --> 00:49:13,359
broaden it you know I just had Evan

1119
00:49:18,980 --> 00:49:16,180
Alexander on the show I don't know a

1120
00:49:21,270 --> 00:49:18,990
month or so ago former Harvard

1121
00:49:23,550 --> 00:49:21,280
neurosurgeon who had this dramatic

1122
00:49:26,070 --> 00:49:23,560
near-death experience very

1123
00:49:28,890 --> 00:49:26,080
transformative for him but where he's

1124
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:28,900
gone with with the work is to look

1125
00:49:33,359 --> 00:49:31,690
broadly it's spiritually transformative

1126
00:49:36,270 --> 00:49:33,369
experiences right so somebody has a

1127
00:49:39,870 --> 00:49:36,280
Kundalini experience or somebody just

1128
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:39,880
has a spontaneous experience walking

1129
00:49:43,650 --> 00:49:42,010
through the street you can find scores

1130
00:49:45,390 --> 00:49:43,660
of these people in mental institutions

1131
00:49:48,630 --> 00:49:45,400
because that's where they wind up

1132
00:49:50,730 --> 00:49:48,640
they've really had a real awakening a

1133
00:49:53,010 --> 00:49:50,740
spiritual awakening that we don't fully

1134
00:49:54,570 --> 00:49:53,020
understand and yet they wind up in

1135
00:49:55,859 --> 00:49:54,580
mental institutions but that's another

1136
00:49:58,260 --> 00:49:55,869
story for another time

1137
00:49:59,259 --> 00:49:58,270
but I think when we start going down

1138
00:50:01,989 --> 00:49:59,269
that path

1139
00:50:04,269 --> 00:50:01,999
these are definitely the core

1140
00:50:06,099 --> 00:50:04,279
experiences of the best experience we

1141
00:50:08,409 --> 00:50:06,109
don't know what the heck we're talking

1142
00:50:11,829 --> 00:50:08,419
about we're we we don't know what that

1143
00:50:13,919 --> 00:50:11,839
means we don't know I'm to tomorrow I'm

1144
00:50:16,620 --> 00:50:13,929
scheduled to have an interview with

1145
00:50:19,289 --> 00:50:16,630
Robert Bruce one of the best-known

1146
00:50:22,989 --> 00:50:19,299
out-of-body experience

1147
00:50:25,329 --> 00:50:22,999
travelers astral travelers in the world

1148
00:50:30,909 --> 00:50:25,339
who's been at it for 30 years he's gonna

1149
00:50:33,909 --> 00:50:30,919
tell me a very detailed topography of

1150
00:50:35,979 --> 00:50:33,919
the spirit world and all these different

1151
00:50:38,169 --> 00:50:35,989
dimensions that he's traveled to will

1152
00:50:39,549 --> 00:50:38,179
higher and lower now I don't know how

1153
00:50:42,099 --> 00:50:39,559
much of that is true but that's

1154
00:50:44,049 --> 00:50:42,109
certainly his experience and he has the

1155
00:50:47,919 --> 00:50:44,059
scores of people that'll back him up on

1156
00:50:50,859 --> 00:50:47,929
that what I say is we just don't know we

1157
00:50:53,559 --> 00:50:50,869
cross the chasm from this ridiculous

1158
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:53,569
materialism that we're in but then we

1159
00:50:57,999 --> 00:50:55,729
have to be really careful because when

1160
00:51:00,639 --> 00:50:58,009
we do cross that chasm a lot of the

1161
00:51:02,559 --> 00:51:00,649
things that we try and say aren't gonna

1162
00:51:06,309 --> 00:51:02,569
make a lot of sense we can't take this

1163
00:51:08,349 --> 00:51:06,319
same scientific precision and bring it

1164
00:51:11,709 --> 00:51:08,359
to that other dimension it just doesn't

1165
00:51:13,329 --> 00:51:11,719
fit I agree with that but my point is is

1166
00:51:16,149 --> 00:51:13,339
that I have read a great deal of

1167
00:51:18,279 --> 00:51:16,159
accounts describing the so called after

1168
00:51:20,199 --> 00:51:18,289
world and what I find is a great deal of

1169
00:51:22,899 --> 00:51:20,209
similarity and I also find that the

1170
00:51:24,189 --> 00:51:22,909
deepest accounts explain discrepancies

1171
00:51:25,870 --> 00:51:24,199
between the other accounts in other

1172
00:51:30,429 --> 00:51:25,880
words the people who have been there the

1173
00:51:32,439 --> 00:51:30,439
longest so I don't find that the reports

1174
00:51:35,649 --> 00:51:32,449
all over all over the map but then again

1175
00:51:38,649 --> 00:51:35,659
I don't I don't read or listen to every

1176
00:51:41,139 --> 00:51:38,659
single shall we say new-age account or

1177
00:51:43,739 --> 00:51:41,149
wild claim that is presented out there I

1178
00:51:46,449 --> 00:51:43,749
go only for what I consider to be the

1179
00:51:48,879 --> 00:51:46,459
best or most reliable most

1180
00:51:51,129 --> 00:51:48,889
well-documented reports and I find a

1181
00:51:53,589 --> 00:51:51,139
great deal of similarity in my reports

1182
00:51:55,449 --> 00:51:53,599
and I discuss this similarity in my book

1183
00:51:57,789 --> 00:51:55,459
science and the afterlife experience

1184
00:51:59,019 --> 00:51:57,799
I hear you Kris I just think you know

1185
00:52:01,719 --> 00:51:59,029
when you start saying we only

1186
00:52:05,739 --> 00:52:01,729
reincarnate two or three times man we

1187
00:52:07,779 --> 00:52:05,749
have we have no clue no clue I didn't

1188
00:52:09,609 --> 00:52:07,789
say I didn't say I personally think we

1189
00:52:12,930 --> 00:52:09,619
only read cartoon or three times I said

1190
00:52:15,770 --> 00:52:12,940
that that that was a claim made by

1191
00:52:17,819 --> 00:52:15,780
the communicators whom I regard as being

1192
00:52:20,069 --> 00:52:17,829
the most trustworthy of the

1193
00:52:22,430 --> 00:52:20,079
communicators Frederick Myers who

1194
00:52:25,109 --> 00:52:22,440
established his identity over about

1195
00:52:28,500 --> 00:52:25,119
20-30 years through the famed cross

1196
00:52:29,819 --> 00:52:28,510
correspondences which convinced a great

1197
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:29,829
number of his friends and colleagues

1198
00:52:34,380 --> 00:52:32,170
that it really was him communicating

1199
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:34,390
through mediums in various parts of the

1200
00:52:39,240 --> 00:52:35,770
world mediums who did not know each

1201
00:52:40,950 --> 00:52:39,250
other so after about 20 25 years after

1202
00:52:43,890 --> 00:52:40,960
he had gone through this extensive

1203
00:52:45,569 --> 00:52:43,900
period of launching these cross cross

1204
00:52:48,750 --> 00:52:45,579
correspondences which are essentially

1205
00:52:52,740 --> 00:52:48,760
literary puzzles he then sat down and

1206
00:52:55,079 --> 00:52:52,750
dictated through 2 in 2 books through

1207
00:52:57,300 --> 00:52:55,089
the medium Geraldine Cummins his account

1208
00:52:59,609 --> 00:52:57,310
of his experiences in the after world

1209
00:53:02,460 --> 00:52:59,619
and what he had learned I considered

1210
00:53:04,740 --> 00:53:02,470
that account to be one of the best

1211
00:53:07,170 --> 00:53:04,750
fair enough Chris I think I kind of got

1212
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:07,180
you sidetracked you were about to tell

1213
00:53:10,500 --> 00:53:09,130
us a little bit more about where you

1214
00:53:13,500 --> 00:53:10,510
think you might be heading and you were

1215
00:53:17,700 --> 00:53:13,510
talking about your confrontation with

1216
00:53:20,430 --> 00:53:17,710
Gerald Worley what is coming up for you

1217
00:53:23,220 --> 00:53:20,440
possibly some film projects the first

1218
00:53:25,140 --> 00:53:23,230
one may involve a challenge that I threw

1219
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:25,150
out to Gerald Worley he said that the

1220
00:53:29,609 --> 00:53:26,770
famous Pam Reynolds case could be

1221
00:53:31,230 --> 00:53:29,619
explained in terms of some lingering

1222
00:53:34,109 --> 00:53:31,240
sense of consciousness and some

1223
00:53:35,490 --> 00:53:34,119
anesthesia induced fantasy and this sort

1224
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:35,500
of thing and I basically tore his

1225
00:53:39,359 --> 00:53:37,210
arguments apart and then I challenged

1226
00:53:41,849 --> 00:53:39,369
him I said Gerald at the end of my

1227
00:53:43,950 --> 00:53:41,859
article I said Gerald let's go to the

1228
00:53:46,349 --> 00:53:43,960
Barrow Institute the Barrow Neurological

1229
00:53:48,089 --> 00:53:46,359
Institute in Phoenix Arizona and let's

1230
00:53:50,130 --> 00:53:48,099
do this experiment you and me will be

1231
00:53:54,180 --> 00:53:50,140
prepared just as Pam was prepared before

1232
00:53:56,490 --> 00:53:54,190
operation and we'll see we'll see if we

1233
00:53:58,050 --> 00:53:56,500
can really hear people talking in the

1234
00:53:59,430 --> 00:53:58,060
room if we can really describe what's

1235
00:54:01,970 --> 00:53:59,440
going on in the room and if we can

1236
00:54:04,170 --> 00:54:01,980
really hear the song Hotel California

1237
00:54:06,809 --> 00:54:04,180
fascinating now that would be an

1238
00:54:09,089 --> 00:54:06,819
experiment that I would tune in to watch

1239
00:54:12,300 --> 00:54:09,099
I hope we get that on my local cable

1240
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:12,310
network Chris we're running out of time

1241
00:54:17,250 --> 00:54:15,130
it's been great to have you on wish you

1242
00:54:19,500 --> 00:54:17,260
the very best of luck with the book that

1243
00:54:22,950 --> 00:54:19,510
is out now and everyone can get unmet

1244
00:54:26,670 --> 00:54:22,960
and on Amazon again the title is science

1245
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:26,680
and the afterlife experience again Chris

1246
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:28,450
thanks so much for joining me on skeptic

1247
00:54:32,460 --> 00:54:30,970
oh thanks Alex if your listeners are

1248
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:32,470
interested they can actually go to the

1249
00:54:36,330 --> 00:54:34,210
books website and it's the same as the

1250
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:36,340
book it's triple W science in the

1251
00:54:40,890 --> 00:54:38,290
afterlife experience dot-com and they

1252
00:54:44,130 --> 00:54:40,900
can read excerpts and endorsements and

1253
00:54:47,190 --> 00:54:44,140
so forth great by the way a ton of

1254
00:54:49,950 --> 00:54:47,200
fabulous endorsements I think that

1255
00:54:51,750 --> 00:54:49,960
speaks volumes for the the progress

1256
00:54:54,660 --> 00:54:51,760
you've made in the respect that you've

1257
00:54:57,990 --> 00:54:54,670
earned in this field you obviously have

1258
00:55:00,540 --> 00:54:58,000
a lot of supporters well earned and and

1259
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:00,550
best of luck with your future endeavors

1260
00:55:04,710 --> 00:55:02,530
whatever they might be thanks Alex

1261
00:55:06,660 --> 00:55:04,720
thanks again to Chris Carter for joining

1262
00:55:08,910 --> 00:55:06,670
me today on skeptic oh so I have a

1263
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:08,920
couple of questions to tee up from this

1264
00:55:12,270 --> 00:55:10,570
interview but before I get there I

1265
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:12,280
wanted to make sure that you know that I

1266
00:55:17,250 --> 00:55:14,650
really don't think it's okay that the

1267
00:55:19,650 --> 00:55:17,260
medical community ostracized andrew

1268
00:55:21,240 --> 00:55:19,660
wakefield from merely pointing out that

1269
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:21,250
there may be some health risks

1270
00:55:25,620 --> 00:55:24,130
associated with vaccines but I do think

1271
00:55:28,890 --> 00:55:25,630
it's important to have something more

1272
00:55:31,350 --> 00:55:28,900
than an Eyes Wide Shut worldview on how

1273
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:31,360
medicine and for that matter science

1274
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:34,090
really operates and I guess well we

1275
00:55:38,490 --> 00:55:35,770
spend quite a bit of time talking about

1276
00:55:40,650 --> 00:55:38,500
that on this show so you probably

1277
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:40,660
already know my point of view on that

1278
00:55:45,150 --> 00:55:43,570
hey couple questions from the show the

1279
00:55:48,330 --> 00:55:45,160
first would be the most obvious has

1280
00:55:51,510 --> 00:55:48,340
Chris done it as he effectively made his

1281
00:55:54,240 --> 00:55:51,520
case for an afterlife is there survival

1282
00:55:56,490 --> 00:55:54,250
of consciousness not super SCI or any of

1283
00:55:59,070 --> 00:55:56,500
the rest of that baloney does your

1284
00:56:02,520 --> 00:55:59,080
individual consciousness survive you

1285
00:56:04,950 --> 00:56:02,530
after your body dies in question two is

1286
00:56:08,610 --> 00:56:04,960
what I guess I was poking at Chris about

1287
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:08,620
and that's are there consequences may be

1288
00:56:13,620 --> 00:56:10,570
consequences that we're not fully

1289
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:13,630
willing to accept for accepting this

1290
00:56:20,430 --> 00:56:16,570
idea that consciousness does survive

1291
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:20,440
death so is this a forced choice bad

1292
00:56:26,790 --> 00:56:23,770
bargain between materialistic science

1293
00:56:28,650 --> 00:56:26,800
and state-sponsored religion even though

1294
00:56:30,090 --> 00:56:28,660
we'd like there to be this third

1295
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:30,100
alternative of enlightened beings

1296
00:56:34,590 --> 00:56:32,770
following their higher purpose should we

1297
00:56:37,230 --> 00:56:34,600
really have any confidence that things

1298
00:56:39,510 --> 00:56:37,240
can really work out that way or does

1299
00:56:40,260 --> 00:56:39,520
history teach us a lesson that we really

1300
00:56:42,870 --> 00:56:40,270
have to choose

1301
00:56:45,210 --> 00:56:42,880
between some variation of those two

1302
00:56:47,580 --> 00:56:45,220
options anyways kick that around a

1303
00:56:49,110 --> 00:56:47,590
little bit let me know your thoughts the

1304
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:49,120
place to do that of course is the

1305
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:53,410
skeptical website at sk e p TI k oh

1306
00:56:57,390 --> 00:56:55,810
don't forget the k in their comm and

1307
00:57:00,210 --> 00:56:57,400
there of course you'll find links to all

1308
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:00,220
our previous shows email facebook link

1309
00:57:05,340 --> 00:57:02,770
to me as well as the comment section and

1310
00:57:07,170 --> 00:57:05,350
a link over to the forum section of the

1311
00:57:09,450 --> 00:57:07,180
website well that's gonna do it for this

1312
00:57:10,890 --> 00:57:09,460
episode hope you enjoyed it hope you

1313
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:10,900
tell your friends about this interview

1314
00:57:15,390 --> 00:57:12,970
with Chris Carter and point them to not

1315
00:57:16,860 --> 00:57:15,400
only interview but to is excellent look

1316
00:57:19,740 --> 00:57:16,870
I have a number of interesting shows

1317
00:57:22,290 --> 00:57:19,750
coming up working on them as we speak

1318
00:57:24,180 --> 00:57:22,300
kind of one in the hopper being edited

1319
00:57:26,820 --> 00:57:24,190
and another interview being done today

1320
00:57:29,220 --> 00:57:26,830
so I want you to know I'm busy cranking

1321
00:57:30,930 --> 00:57:29,230
these things out love doing it and love

1322
00:57:33,060 --> 00:57:30,940
hearing from you as you listen to them